(Pic not related)
Remember the transition from XviD to h264? Well, soon, 10-bit h264 will replace 8-bit h264.
Advantages
Without going into encoder speak, 10-bit h264 can achieve a same level of quality as 8-bit h264, but at a lower filesize.
Disadvantages
10-bit h264 is not widely supported yet.
More info on 10-bit h264 | More | More
This is simply a discussion your opinions of 10-bit h264.
Tuesday 19th July 2011 
10:28 PM 
Just make a poll already.
I’m with you, bro~
A majority doesn’t make intelligence.
No poll tyvm.
a lot of people are missing the point of how much better 10-bit looks compared to 8-bit, as well as the MUCH lower file size.
if you follow any of the /a/ threads, you’ll probably see daiz posting a zillion comparisons, such as this – http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/65953 – and also an 100mb difference in file size on episode 7 of denpa onna, which also looked better.
and yes, it looks better and lowers filesize regardless of the source or what monitor you’re using. i’m using a fairly decent 22inch tft from a few years ago, and also a really shitty second hand 17inch tft, and i can see a clear difference between the steins;gate eds that commie blogged about recently.
anyone against this is really just holding back progress for no reason other than they don’t like change. all you need to get this to work fine and see all the benefits is literally just reinstall cccp or mplayer2.
to the people complaining about not working with hardware, stop trying to watch anime on your favorite apple product.
and finally, this also causes colossal fuckups with youtube if you try to upload a 10bit video to it. i naturally support anything that causes more hassle to streamers
“8-bit” with an extra 100MB looks a lot better than a black screen.
Bleeding edge didn’t get that name for a reason.
Argh, “didn’t get that name for *no* reason”.
Leaving out a negative changes the meaning ever so slightly…
no reason to hold yourselves back just because other people are too cheap to stop living in the past
If it ain’t broke, don’t “fix” it.
Nothing here is broken, but this could certainly change that.
Nothing’s broken , nobody’s fixing anything.
From what I read video quality just got better. Be happy instead of ruining it for everyone.
Do you think they will remove the new changes again later or something?
nothing here is “fixed” either it’s improved
I can understand hi10p being used in pro circles for video that will need to still be edited later and will be subject to lightening or darkening .
If the aim really is smaller file sizes , I would suggest going to multi pass encoding instead of constant quality . use 4 passes to make absolutely sure every bit is used where it’s needed the most , 1 3 3 2 . Make sure your scenecut value is low , since it’s animation , we don’t need keyframes in the middle of pan’s. have high maxrate and buffsize values so when there are extra bits from using less keyframes , those can be used at full. High look ahead , use all possible motion checks etc etc , high number of reference frames (the chance you will ever use the 15th ref frame is close to zero , but in animation there are techniques where a random repetition of fames are used to create aura effects or sunshine , so aiming at using every bit efficiently would then warrant this )…there is so much that can be done to make the best use of available bytes. Any encoder knows this.
Not stressing release dates , take time to encode. As we all know , if you want to squeeze that last bit of efficiency , it takes a long long time. Encoding a file for a whole day is the norm rather than the exception.
Here’s a 100 MB re-encode of the Doki release of A Channel as a sample test. Encoding this has taken over a day. It is possible to have something decent at a smaller size.
http://www.fileserve.com/file/W8fPUuB
The other question for everyone being:
Is it worth it? Would you want to wait half a day , a full day .. longer to have a slightly smaller file? Or do you want to watch this week’s release of “Usagi Drop” asap ?
–
As for the question : “Do we hold back because some people might have compatibility issues with their current players…”
That should never be the thing that holds you back. In fact , old formats should only be added as an afterthought , as a convenience for people with bad hardware or small bandwidth . Xvid and divx had their glory days , and should be buried before they start to stink . The day something significantly better than H.264 comes along , I would applaud it if doki were amongst the first to use it.
“That should never be the thing that holds you back”
The point of distributing a video file is so people can see it. If you don’t manage that, then everything else is moot. It’s a variant of cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Hello , I am known as “Big Mata” I run Big Mata’s fido BBS and am the main supplier for FIDONET mail for botswana.
I do not have the extra CPU power to view this anime in those new exotic formats like divx , xvid or fli , since my 386 spends most of it’s time sorting the mail. Hence I would like to ask , if it would be possible to encode this anime in 320×240 anim5 format , and span it across multiple 880 kb floppies so me and all the villagers can watch it on the amiga 500 I inherited from my uncle Quintisha.
BIG MATA thanks you !
Wow, sarcasm. I’ve never encountered that before.
I’m not concerned about CPU speed or disk space as much as ensuring that codecs can play the file *at all*. And yes, that means codecs wherever the viewer is, be it Windows, Linux, XBMC, Plex, Roku, iPad, Android, etc. Right now, we pretty much have that, and it’s a refreshing change from the almighty *hell* it used to be to play anime fansubs prior to the current status quo.
Unless you’ve got a *big* improvement – and I mean like VHS to DVD, or DVD to Blu-Ray improvement – then I say it’s not worth breaking everything.
QQ
hmmm if everything the same quality wise, go ahead 🙂
i desperately need more hdd space. So smaller episode size will allow me to download more. As long as cccp and ps3ms can play it i dont mind 🙂
3TB hard drive for $107 today on Amazon. Go nuts.
i recon his internet bandwidth eventually costs more than a 3TB drive, so his point still stands “allow me to download more”
Instead of encoding the video, how about we decode reality? Then we wouldn’t even have to download the file, we could just view it directly in our minds.
I’ve always wondered why nobody has done this…
Seriously, did some of you even bother to read all three articles?
It’s not only a bandwidth reduction between 5% and 20% (not sure how it will work in our current application, though.. shall wait and see). It maintains video quality and the reduced bandwidth (read: better quality at same bandwidth). Plus you see a reduction on banding, bleeding, and other video artifacts.
And, encoding an 8-bit source to 10-bit actually has an advantage, since there is just that much less data that will end up truncated in the final encode. You could say that there is more room for error in that case.
I’d say give it a shot. Media players are quick to keep up with the changing technology these days, and I don’t see it impacting *current* system specs.
All I have to say is, the people who applaud moving this forward either didn’t live through the late 90’s/early 2000’s, or selfishly insist that everyone use Windows for everything. Surely no one wants to play this through a media streaming device, or take it with them (hey guys, Android doesn’t natively play jack shit either – this is not an Apple thing), or run Linux or Mac OS X, or…
This comes down to e-peen and selfishness. The current system works perfectly for Blu-Ray and 1080p, for crissakes – what are you watching this on, a 4K TV? :-p
*hands over kleenex*
Not a 4K tv. And I don’t have a red in the garrage either. What I DO have , are scalable players for the display devices all over the house that will be easily upgraded.
Watch something in a quality below of what’s possible because others bough what is basically “crap” . I don’t think so. If you’re nice , maybe someone will encode you a version that still plays on your list of now defunct hardware decoders. Or encode one yourself?
Kind regards .
PS : Cutting off my nose ? what ? I bet there’s analogies that do make sense , give it a bit more thought next time before you reply ok ?.
Yes, cutting off one’s nose to spite their face. In other words, a needlessly destructive solution to a minor problem. It’s only been in common use since the 12th century.
Call me back when you have a stable method of playing this on Windows, Linux, Mac, standalone streamer boxes, fuppes setups, XBMC/Boxee/Plex, and the smorgasboard of tablets and phones (*yes* phones, people do that on the way to work). Right now this is generally possible, although you may have to convert from an MKV container to an MP4 container for standalone systems. Still – and this is key – it doesn’t require transcoding the video. If you start using unsupported H.264 features, that will require a transcode, and you may as well distribute it in WebM.
Mind you, once you *do* have widespread (or even stable) support for such a thing, then go ahead and use it. But this is putting the cart before the horse (100BC).
Good luck holding back progress . It’s been tried since the 12 century as well , to the point of having people killed I might add . Are you going to kill us all for advocating change mr diamondsw ?
Cutting off one’s nose …. Is used in the cadre of overdoing it when finding solutions to problems. In this case my friend , _there is no problem to start with_ There is only progress. They found a way to make h.264 better and that’s where it starts and ends.
Also , don’t start waving your pathetic notions about video formats et al in front of me , it’s sad. I’m not your daddy , you don’t need to prove anything to me ok…
Say hello to mplayer please. It works perfectly well on Linux/Mac/Unix. As for Android devices, the support for different file types is quite good. It is indeed possible to play .mkv files on your device (see Rockplayer), you are simply limited by the power that your device has. My 800MHz CPU on my Desire Z can’t really handle it. If you were, however to try it on a tablet that runs Android, I am sure that you would have more luck.
As for trying to get Apple to properly support other codecs, I’m sure they’ll be a stick in the mud about that. Most of their devices since the original iPod video have only supported mp4, with avi coming into their newer devices. So, I’ll give you that one.
You are (somewhat) right about the lack of support for different formats on Android. Most basic media players on your devices are somewhat lacking.
I’ll take the new format thanks, it should help loads with the horrible blocking that plagues tv these days in dark scenes.
This size for this quality? You’re kidding me!
Linux (Fedora 15), ffmpeg 2011-06-12 git snapshot, mplayer2-2.0 and it has about same CPU consumption as doki’s 720p BD release (which means I’m just about able to play it).
I can play any 1080p Blu-Ray releases out there from my 2008 MacBook with mplayer on a separate monitor. I’m not even running a recent version of mplayer either.
I would like if you waited until it was widely supported…
Every decent player currently has a version that plays it. Mpc-hc , mplayer , mplayer2 , vlc . And cccp codec pack has been updated to be able to use it. The only snag I know of is for people who don’t want to use anything but coreavc. I’m sure coreavc will be updated from 2.5.5 soon , especially if they see the usage of h10p booming.
Release something without even telling anyone it’s 10bit like some random ova…see if anyone notices lol. Then if anyone complains hold a poll “Did this play for you hassle free with latest codecs/player yes/no”
That would actually be an *awesome* idea, and would quickly ferret out how widespread support is. I like this.
I would wait till K-Lite and CCCP officially support it.
I would do regular airings in the 8-bit format, and for the people that like to archive blu-rays, 10-bit. Though, make sure the blu-rays has a 10-bit encode to begin with. Some of the early ones have 8 bit.
There is no point in increasing the quality in aired shows.
“There is no point in increasing the quality in aired shows.”
Should have said something more specific. No point in increasing bit depth in an episode that lacks the quality to begin with. There would be no difference.
Another good suggestion. This way people could be guaranteed at least a 720p release, but the 1080p will nudge the codec support forward.
For weekly releases I would rather have the episode sooner than later. However, for archiving purposes I would prefer the encode to be of the highest quality and least space. While we are at it, how about encoding the BDs to DXVA as well? That way I can utilize my fancy video card.
This comment below was meant as a reply.
vv
You just need a H.264 decoder that supports the DXVA capability of your card for it’s decoding. DXVA is not a codec.
http://corecodec.com/products/coreavc
For example. Be sure to enable it , and set corecodec as preferred decoder in mpc , and in it’s configuration.
my opinion on 10-bit h264….. no.
I for one supports this. But let us wait for a stable player than can handle 10-bit. Changing now would be rather pointless since less people can enjoy it which is against the purpose of your group doing HD and SD releases.
Yes, I would very much prefer the girl in the picture for all of Doki’s encodes.
If you’re using k-lite or cccp you can just patch your ffdshow with the new tryout version so it can decode 10-bit, but I’ve heard it’s still a bit buggy. Then again, a few months down the track when groups actually start using this there may be more stable versions of it available.
not really bothered with the filesize.
if the 10-bit encodes would greatly increase the video quality, then by all means, migrate.
otherwise, you could also use the 10-bit for 1080p encodes, 8-bit for 720p, xvid for 480p. I’ve seen others with this video encoding standard.
Whatever is being said about compatibility right now.
Imagine this…
For the rest of the summer , doki adds a Hi10p version of everything to their releases.
I bet my left nut that every self respecting anime addict , if they know it’s going to improve the quality of the output , finds a compatible player / decoder within days of the first release . Even if it’s an obscure , unstable , slow decoder that uses 70% of their cpu time for playing . They will install it to be able to see the difference. And they will LOVE it.
I like this idea. You know you’re a true otaku when you start thinking like this.
I would like you to post test files so that I can try to see what, if anything, breaks. I would love to have the test file encoded both in 8bit and 10bit so that I can also compare the quality of both, provided that I can get both to play 😉
I agreed. I am pretty many people here is afraid of 10 bit encoder due to the lack of a good pc. So, providing a sample video or have one of your releases to be 10 bit. this way, people can know if there pc can handle it or not.
I am not sure but if a video doesn’t require up-scaling, won’t the video be process much smoother since it won’t be doing much processing than 8 bit?
Ya, I’m one of those. Just DL’d the newest beta of CCCP for support and tried the linked Dantalian Hi10P encode.
The new CCCP improved play back for the 8-bit encodes but the 10-bit are unplayable on my PC.
Having said that, I’m for 10-bit. It changes nothing for me as I was re-encoding most 720p releases anyway.
PC: Single Core AMD ~2ghz, Win XP, 2GB ram, no hardware acceleration for H.264 playback.
If this has a big advantage and it will not require to upgrade the pc, well, go to the transition… if not, got to wait for others to adapt on it… But I think it will not require to upgrade pc just to adapt to 10-bit h264.
My computer can’t fully handle 720p videos, but it plays 480p videos perfectly. I don’t want to play videos using a new codec that will eat even more cpu power up to the point where 480p videos may become unplayable.
pretty sure that many people*
regardless of 8 or 10-bit, h264 can maintain a higher level of detail while achieving a higher compression… yet encoders still unccesarily bloat file size. The discussion of 8 vs 10 is moot
I very much agree with this but …. Encoding in ways you achieve smaller file sizes with great quality takes a long long looong time . Does Doki want to make it’s viewers wait ? I would say that , if an encoder is ready before the editor , he could have put his back into adding some more “bang for the bit” … But then again , I’m sure everyone is doing their utmost not to delay anything.
A couple of italian fansub groups already started using 10bit version (SSK, Task-Force and Akuma) so I can tell you how I find them firsthand.
The quality is pretty good and the files aren’t that problematic to open. Personally speaking I use DivX decoder coupled with Media Player Classic – Home Cinema on an Intel 4500MHD graphic board and a Pentium U4100: no graphic glitch, no slowdown (on 720p version). I don’t see a real difference in the level of system resources used either.
My point of view is that switching to Hi10P is worth the effort.