(Pic not related)
Remember the transition from XviD to h264? Well, soon, 10-bit h264 will replace 8-bit h264.
Advantages
Without going into encoder speak, 10-bit h264 can achieve a same level of quality as 8-bit h264, but at a lower filesize.
Disadvantages
10-bit h264 is not widely supported yet.
More info on 10-bit h264 | More | More
This is simply a discussion your opinions of 10-bit h264.
Tuesday 19th July 2011 
10:28 PM 
8bit will still be better for quite awhile regardless. The true morons are those who want 10bit not even knowing if they have a machine to handle the quality bump. I will laugh at you when you call the 8bit users morons and your machine won’t play the quality you wanted and expected.
The majority cannot spend money to buy a new machine, just for the content bump. It will reflect on the user audience of your files.
Subbers do sub for free. But it doesn’t help to nerf a good thing for those who enjoy your work.
Only thing left is if that matters or not to each group. Which some seem not to care. Which sucks and I’m not the only one thinking that.
580+ opinions of arguing should be a pretty good indication.
you can already watch 10bit files to make sure your machine plays or not, the ones that dont do that are indeed morons
my 3 cents,
Don’t switch to anything new until it is officially supported by production releases that are in main contribs / repositories.
With the best switch over on the third production release (e.g. if software xyz supports it in production release 4.6.2, then wait until at least version 4.6.5 to use the new gizmo.)
Officially Supported:
http://i.imgur.com/RmYum.png
Also officially supported:
http://i.imgur.com/HHvX9.png
Well, it’s time to switch. CCCP is now officially supporting 10 bit with 2011-07-30. Go and get it and stop this whining and moaning.
Coalgirl’s 10-bit Bakemonogatari work’s perfectly for me with the 7-30 CCCP build.
It’s now officially supported, so no real reason not to use it.
More info and a guide about Hi10P http://haruhichan.com/wpblog/?p=205
Thanks for the link.
In my own testing madVR works much better than FFDShow 10 bit (which is what CCCP uses). FFDShow sometimes drops a lot of frames on linked chapter transitions. It’s no surprise since, as someone in your link states, “[madVR] uses a much newer version of libav than either ffdshow or cccp.” Having a decoder and renderer in one package probably helps a lot too.
One the developers of FFDShow have made it clear that the 10 bit version is not ready for release. I find it a bit premature for CCCP to release a new final version using a patched aplha version of FFDShow.
Anyway, madVR will tide me over until CoreAVC 3.0 is released. The fall-back feature will be nice because the vast majority of files I have are 8 bit. Hardware acceleration is generally much more efficient than software decoding. It frees up the CPU to handle rendering the absurd softsub karaoke that some groups are using these days (*cough*coalgrils*cough). Unfortunately, we supposedly won’t have hardware acceleration for 10 bit without new hardware, but CoreAVC’s fall-back will only force software decoding when needed.
Now, someone please write a subtitle filter that doesn’t suck! It’s 2011, and it’s time to make subtitle rendering multithreaded or at least more efficient. Only my i7 2600K @4.5GHz can handle rendering with pre-buffering disabled. My 2.5GHz Penryn C2D laptop can barely handle karaoke effects and typesetting with pre-buffering on, and sometimes I have to disable subtitle animation completely.
Seconding multithreaded / move-rendering-to-gfx-card request. The world doesn’t know the potential for (tasteful) karaoke effects.
(Hell while I’m at it, give it the option to render *outside* the movie player’s window (like near the bottom of the screen)(using the system’s GDI overlay) when I’m playing a non-video file. I’ve yet to see a lyric plugin that does ass files and display outside the player app and not in some fixed part of the windows taskbar. (Or, maybe I haven’t looked hard enough.))
GDI is depreciated
FYI, madVR only dither down to 8bit at the very end, as oppose to ffdshow after the decoder. You’ll see that madVR report as 8bit video, even though the video is 10bit since ffdshow send 8bit to madVR.
There was an attempt to write a new subtitle renderer. Unfortunately none ever come to light. And that was a completely new format. Don’t even hope for a new renderer to replace VSFilter. I heard it’s such a mess.
I remember how it was said that the .ass spec was VERY difficult to standardize, thus we ended up with all the vsfilter branches, experimental features, nonuniform subtitles between VLC and other players whatnot. orz (Maybe there’d need to be a revolutionary feature to subtitling for the subtitle spec to be actively toyed with)
I’ve never heard of Direct2D and DirectWrite (didn’t even know GDI was hardware accelerable in the first place).
If subtitle rendering can’t be multithreaded / gfx-rendered, maybe instead there could be a way to ‘pre-render’ (certain parts of) subtitles for specific resolutions (video res, fullscreen, resize inbetween) for play ahead of time. (I’ve once played around with avisynth, prerendering lyrics to certain k-styles (made by other people), then arbitrarily setting that separate video file to display over a target video(s)- ’tis a disk space hit to render that many kara-overlays though, and the dummy alpha channel isn’t pretty to work with sometimes *coughalotofthetimeuncough*)
(I must’ve seen either good kara (not necessarily from anime), or like watching things over and over again zzz)
No one’s on the spot, this post’s pretty off topic anyways. Throwing it out there is all, hmm hmm.
how the hell can someone have ptoblems rendering a subtitle? oO
Athlon64 3000+ 720p Hi10p + karaoke is decoded smoothly using mplayer2 builds. (Athlon XP 1800+ works fine without karaoke β β‘ β )
Doki’s kara is fine. Theirs generally only involves filling in the letters. The problem is with other groups’ kara. For instance Coalgirl’s Cardcaptor Sakura has intense kara in the ED. Not only do the letters change color, but they move and fade out too! My i7 2600K can handle it with pre-buffering disabled, but my C2D laptop stutters horribly. Even with pre-buffering enabled it still flashes. I have to completely disable animation to make it playable, but then it gets really choppy. Note: this is using MPC-HC’s internal sub filter; vsfilter performance is even worse.
The CPU use is heavy for animated karaoke. For intense kara like the above example, it’s using about 13% on my i7 and 50% on my C2D. That’s a single thread maxed out. Animated karaoke would be the perfect application for GPU acceleration, but it doesn’t seem like there is much interest in implementing it.
And now we are throwing 10 bit h.264 into the mix. That’s a lot to ask for CPUs with less than 4 cores. Meanwhile the GPU is sitting idly by waiting to do something other than just rendering/displaying frames.
I’m pretty sure I saw info on a new(er) decoder that can do hardware decoding of 10 bit video, but I can’t remember where I saw it. However I do remember that it was still in the testing phase and considered buggy.
Supposedly Mashi, the madVR developer, is working on a subtitle filter. That would be great since the decoder and renderer in madVR are already very good. Having that all in one package would probably be more efficient.
No he doesn’t. He wanted to have madVR support MPC-HC’s internal subtitle renderer. He’s already done that some time ago.
Just downloaded Coalgirls Yuru Yuri episode 3 in hi10p, at a whopping 98MB (+35 for OP/ED) in 720p, which looks identical to the HorribleSubs version.
For your sake , I do hope it looks at least somewhat better than the horriblesubs version.
>better
confirmed.
much better also confirmed
K-lite is now officially supporting 10 bit with
K-lite version 7.5.6 ~ 9.4 MB ~ July 31st 2011
Changelog:
Updated Media Player Classic Home Cinema to version 1.5.3.3522
Updated ffdshow to revision 3958
Updated LAV Splitter to version 0.31 build 2011-07-31
Updated LAV Audio to version 0.31 build 2011-07-31
Updated Codec Tweak Tool to version 5.0.6
ffdshow is now able to decode H.264 Hi10P…
H10p is widely supported, Isnt it?
Homies, homies.
Just do what m.3.3.w. is doing — releasing in both 8 and 10-bit. Eventually the majority of people will use the smaller-yet-higher-quality option.
We cool niggas? Don’t force a switch, let teh peeps do it themselves. Eventually 8-bit will become the minority and can be phased out.
FFDShow Rev. 3954 added 10 bit support. I don’t know if it works though.
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/70551
Bakemonogatari BD 720p 8-bit and 10-bit comparison. In dark scenes 8-bit version looks like a shit compared to 10-bit version and 10-bit version is about 240 MB smaller XD
But the fact that it’s Bakemonogatari makes me want to not believe anything you say.
THAT’S the quality difference everyone is calling the next step like xvid->h264? I don’t think so, Tim. I can’t even see the difference unless I sit right infront of the monitor. Do you guys sit a foot away from the screen to watch anime or what?
when you watch on the computer you imediatly see the diference, and if you use a big TV to watch you can also see the diference
i hope it won’t be the same with 1080p. i don’t wanna waste my precious 20 GB of Bakemonogatari D:
@nagato
I tend to agree, the average person(Like me, no pun intended) won’t see much of a difference anyway regardless of what is used, just the whole smaller file size thing I suppose.
I guess if anything 10bit will mean less of the 10gb+ 1080p anime movies that make me cringe to download, thus forcing me to just buy on Blu Ray.
You’re blind if you can’t see the difference. There is severe stair-stepping in the gradients of the 8 bit shot. It’s still there in the 10 bit, but it’s much improved. There is also much less noise from dithering in the 10 bit shot.
I have no idea what stair stepping is, it doesn’t make me blind, it just means I have no idea about video lol
Its not like knowing/caring about video is a requirement for watching anime =/
It isn’t. Just because you don’t know what it is doesn’t mean you’re somehow blind to it. Stair-stepping is when, instead of a smooth gradient between two colours, you get bands of solid colours. As you can see, the banding isn’t completely gone, but it is improved a lot, and at a lower file size. I’m a bit surprised, with Coalgirls being Coalgirls, that they didn’t jack up the quality even more (though it would have erased some of the gains in file size).
To be honest, despite watching anime for years I honestly haven’t noticed that before, maybe I’ve just been lucky with the groups I’ve downloaded from lol
Anyway thankyou for answering me but as I know nothing about video I can’t really debate it in detail, sorry.
Just my point above was mostly me saying the average person(Like me lol) wouldnt notice these things anyway as I wouldnt be looking for problems.
Sorry..
Seriously? You’ve never, ever noticed banding? I find this hard enough to believe that I’m forced to assume either you’re lying or have mistaken what we mean by banding/stair stepping.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colour_banding
Hard to notice something you dont know lol
Anyway sorry, im dropping this subject before I sound even more clueless π
That’s like saying it’s hard to notice a gorilla in your kitchen, or something equally ridiculous, because you don’t know what a gorilla is.
At the risk of dipping a bit into ad hominem, are you far-sighted? If you’ve honestly never noticed it before, and have trouble seeing it even now that it’s been pointed out, you might need glasses of some kind.
Well I give up, I dont think you understand.
Besides the obvious issues with video like pixelation or stuttering, the average person like me, wouldnt know/see what these specific issues are.
I honestly dont care regardless. If it plays, looks decent. I dont mind.
Sorry I just dont feel like this is an issue worth debating. I said enough times I know nothing about video, and if someone knows nothing about something you cant expect them to spot/care about issues lol
@Desuwa…. that’s enough. u don’t need to continue this discussion. u can’t always think that everyone here understand……….
and i think u’re little bit exaggerating about this topic
Not everyone has really sharp eyes or actively looks for banding. I watch anime on a 27″ LCD monitor and also on a 46″ TV, but I sit comfortably far enough to enjoy a show – I know what banding is, but I rarely notice it when stuff is in motion because I’m not actively thinking or looking for it unless I press my face at my TV or monitor or stop a frame to look at it.
I agree that the sample 8-bit and 10-bit shows quite a difference though (a better comparison would have been 8-bit and 10-bit coalgirls encode), but like “Me” – a casual viewer most likely will not notice the banding when the scene is in motion unless actively looking for it or it’s EXTREMELY obvious.
K-lite pack supports 10bit since the latest update and it looks good, so go for it!
Shark007 Codecs officially supports 10-bit decoding aswell.
Shark007 Win7codecs Version 3.0.0
Shark007 x64 Components Version 3.0.0
Vista Codec Package Version 5.9.8
Changelog:
Update ffdshow 3959
Update gabest 3522
Update x264 encoder 2044
Update MediaInfo Lib 7.47
Add 10bit decoding
This gots ta be teh most poplar shit on the anime internetz. I coo’ wid dat tho. Peace
STFU LOSER
Dude, you crack me up xD
MPlayer 2 Build supports 10 bit and ordered chapters, only for Mac OSX 10.7 and 10.6 I’m still running 10.5, so I may be in a bit of bother if everyone decides to change. I’m still going to wait a year before I change my computer…
But for everyone who’s running 10.6/10.7: http://adriasil.nekosubs.com/blog/index.php/media-players/mac-video-players/
Tried Hi10P with ffdshow 3959 (x64)
Unfortunately Media Player Classic Home Cinema (x64) crashes every time with a buffer overflow
“buffer overflow, or buffer overrun, is an anomaly where a program, while writing data to a buffer, overruns the buffer’s boundary and overwrites adjacent memory. This is a special case of violation of memory safety.”
be glad MPC protects you against that π
sadly the x264 Hi10 encoder is not that tweaked as the normal 8bit version, but it has time to grow.
ffdshow finally has an official build with 10bit decoding support, 3958, found here
http://sourceforge.net/projects/ffdshow-tryout/files/SVN%20builds%20by%20clsid/generic%20builds/
and not the alpha/beta/experimental builds like the one in CCCP beta release.
sadly DXVA decoding will not be an option any more, so Hi10 is bad news for all who have an old pc, but a newer video card to handle h.264. but, then again, the majority of fansub groups did not produce DXVA compatible encodes anyway…
from my point of view, if encoders get smaller files @ same quality, then Hi10 it is π
Unfortunately the promise of lower filesizes has frequently proven to be a crock of crap in fansubbing. While it may “technically” be possible, the fact is majority of groups will not take advantage of that scenario. Instead they will somehow manage to produce __larger__ files at supposedly better quality (since they can’t be satisfied even with improved quality @ the same size).
Not speaking about doki in particular – this is just my experience whenever I see any new ‘wonderful’ codec come out…the files always get larger :/
if a new codec comes out its obvious that the fansub will want more quality (no matter the filesize), its stupid (imo) to not use the max qulity it offers just to have a smaller size (coalguirls cant be pronounced on a answer below, theyr files are too big and sometimes offer less quality than other subbers)
Personally I’d prefer 8-Bit or at least dual releases (don’t know how much of a hassle that will be though).
My computer can easily play 10-Bit, but my TV-Media player device-thingo can’t, and I bet that most others won’t be able to handle it either.
I know that you couldn’t care less, but it would be a waste to have spent 300β¬ for a player which is totally useless to me now xD
If your tv has an input for vga/dvi why didn’t you just do what I do and connect your pc to it, and don’t say it would be a hassle because I do this every other day and carry it from my room to the living room and it takes only a few minutes for the complete setup.
Or man up and spend a bit of money for a 40+ foot cable, from eBay or some other cheap online supplier. Leave it unplugged if it’s digital until you need it, and if you have some kind of wireless control use that, otherwise make a playlist.
A quick search shows less than $1 (US) per foot of DVI or HDMI cable, so it’s relatively cheap.
Or just lug the PC to the required area. π
While you guys are trolling here,
I’m already re-encoding the BDs here to Hi10P, best quality, smaller filesize, and the color banding are more than better now. π
Well, you’re self-trolling. If you’re re-encoding you’ll get an overall loss of quality…
Coalgirls encoded an episode of Yuru Yuri in higher quality than HorribleSubs’ rip at 89MB (with separate OP/ED files).
I love 10bit.
I have had no trouble using 10 bit and cccp beta. How ever I think sys specs will play a much bigger roll than hardwear or softwear decoding.
Monitor type and size will also have an effect on how much improvement you see weather its there or not. I know when I frist got this ultrasharp monitor that I could see a much greater differace in avi and h264 encodes over the old 17in tube type monitor.
On my old 3GHz pen D h264 would max out my cpu, Now I see 10%~15% cpu with h264, and 20% playing 10bit h264.
Here are my sys specs:
E8600 @ 3.33GHz
2 GB DDR2 800
P45 chipset
250GTS 1GB ram
20in dell ultra sharp LCD
your specs are almost the same as mine (my CPU is only at 1.8GHz half the grapphic memory and my ram is at 1300) and the CPU doesnt stress so much on 8bit decoding, what codecs are you using?
CCCP 2011-7-30.
Just saying, the new official cccp is out, 10 bit support
Just downloaded Hi10 Yuru Yuri episode that was 118 Mt and was better quality then anything i have ever seen… (it literly blew me away.) PLS change to 10 bit soon as posible, works no problem in the new cccp build. I’m gona save sooooooo much space whit this. 118 Mt people when normaly go’s to 420 Mt… This was BD relese.
No DXVA support means 10bit H.264 is useless for now.
Breaking compatibility for marginal improvements on video quality and filesize (give me a break, no group encodes for filesizes nowadays, it’s all 300+ MB). The only reason I see 10bit is for places with limited internet access (data caps and such) but for the rest of the world, 8bit H.264 will do nicely.
This is nothing like the transition from Xvid to H.264. We’re not seeing a resolution improvement, only color depth improvement. Most people have their monitor gamma set too high anyway…
I disagree, I belive with a HIDEF monitor you would see a much better image. I mean if you havea 20yr old tv and compare the same show on DVD and Blueray, you would prob be mad for wasting your money. But on the newer monitors and the whole HDMI thing, there would be no contest that the blueray wins.
And you never hear a Nascar driver say “I can only go 5mph faster, naw I’ll wait to upgrade when I can go 20mph faster” in the mean time everyone else will go the 5mph faster.
IN the end I found the 10 bit to be much better at making lines more definded without adding extra noise, as well some older (6months or so) 8 bit encodes seem to play smoother with slightly improved lines/edegs using the new CCCP 2011-7-30
aside CCCP, i’m still struggling how to make use of madVR
damn…it never worked well with me D: