(Pic not related)
Remember the transition from XviD to h264? Well, soon, 10-bit h264 will replace 8-bit h264.
Advantages
Without going into encoder speak, 10-bit h264 can achieve a same level of quality as 8-bit h264, but at a lower filesize.
Disadvantages
10-bit h264 is not widely supported yet.
More info on 10-bit h264 | More | More
This is simply a discussion your opinions of 10-bit h264.
Tuesday 19th July 2011 
10:28 PM 
Either you can haz HW/Drivers that workz, or not.
CCCP is definitely a CPU pig without MadVR or other assistance. Folks complain a lot about VLC but it just works better on my system.
Looks like my N280-based netbook wouldn’t be able to handle the increase from 8 to 10. 8-bit 720p is the EXACT limit for this hardware.
VLC works “better” on your system as, to compensate for the lack of CPU/GPU power on your computer, it framedrops like nobody’s business.
Indeed. VLC does a downscale so your PC can handle it
>VLC
i lol’ed
( ﾟ∀ﾟ)ｱﾊﾊ八八ﾉヽﾉヽﾉヽﾉ ＼ / ＼/ ＼
No. Frames. Dropped. And the animated subtitles appear to be working rather well now. Is there something I am missing?
…..also, color ASCII render mode. ftw
I just got the first 2 EP of Bake 1080p to test out the quality, I’m using MPC/KMplayer with the latest CCCP (ffdshow obviously) and I saw a major difference.
I have a Dell U2311 screen (FullHD 1080p, best IPS panel for the buck) and it’s so clear I couldn’t believe it. I deleted my old 1080p version to replace with the new and spared 10GB of space. This will be the reason why I will only DL 1080p 10bit in the future, when a release is available in that format.
I saw some posts talking about the subtitle rendering… while I was testing with MPC and the new CCCP, I couldn’t believe how bad other subs renders are bad compared to the built-in of KMPlayer. I’ve disabled all the internal video and audio filters to use only ffdshow and so far, it’s the perfect match for me… KM might not be the most popular (or the best for some ppl), but I just love it’s keyboard shortcuts…
Ben
I’d say just prepare for the next wave.
So what does Hina say? Does she agree with a switch? Whatever she may decide, I am with her!
I think “Hime Chen! Otogi Chikku Idol Lilpri” would make a good comparson test for 8bit vs 10bit. I dont have a clue how to make encodes, or I would do it. 😛
to sum up:
most of the codecs/codec-embedded player right now seem not mature enough (tried ff-tryouts and mplayer2; mostly there, but not yet); anyway, it will take time to spread updated configurations.
moreover, it breaks all current DXVA implementations (and of course i have a ION based htpc; htpcs are frequently not cpu-based to reduce cost, size and – especially – NOISE), mobile/tablets with video acceleration, and boxes like WD TV.
the commercial Coreavc will support it in version 3 but it’s not clear if it will leverage CUDA or similar at 10-bit precision, also.
I’d suggest to stick with 8 bit as mainstream choice and 10 bit as experimental, probably switching after the year end will be less painful (but will remain a problem for people like me that are bound to hardware accelerated implementations).
I encoded a BDMV following expert encoders from doki to 8 and 10 bit and the conclusion is:
10 bit FOR THE WINNER
Can’t you just close this thread already? I don’t see the point of keeping it going on forever and ever…
Its for the Lulz
I dare not leave it with 666 comments. That would be tempting fate!
Several questions.
1. How many of you have professional video cards with drivers that can output 10-bit per channel signal (Quadro FX/FireGL/FirePro)?
2. How many of you have monitors that have 10-bit matrix & can accept 10-bit signal through DisplayPort or HDMI?
3. (to encoders) Where do you plan to get the high-quality 10-bit video sources?
3. (to encoders) Where do you plan to get the high-quality 10-bit video sources?
BDs only come in 8-bits anyway, lol.
The raws will stay the same as they always have been. If you would like to direct your attention to the diagram on the first page of:
http://x264.nl/x264/10bit_01-ateme_pierre_larbier_422_10-bit.pdf
Unless we can get super-secret-pre-release-straight-from-the-tv-company raws nobody is going to get 10 bit video sources.
The videos are being encoded with 10 bit in order to increase the quality of the videos, notably the blocking that anime is plagued with due to the solid colours, even more noticeable in darker scenes. There are also some file size advantages, but with the increase in larger hard drives, and external storage, that shouldn’t be too much of a problem…
“The videos are being encoded with 10 bit in order to increase the quality of the videos”
You mean to preserve the quality (of the raws). You cannot magically extract more information from 4:2:0 8-bit video when encoding it to 4:2:2 10-bit.
Also in the end of the pipeline this format (4:2:2 10-bit) should be supported by the renderer or it should be converted to the RGB32. And the driver in the end will still convert it to 8-bit signals regardless.
Well, if someone tested it & encoding to 4:2:2 10-bit really better preserves the quality of video (and even with less bitrate) then we should still wait until the stable software that can decode such video is released.
http://haruhichan.com/wpblog/?p=205
>then we should still wait until the stable software that can decode such video is released.
i’m getting tired of this question D:
we all are >.<
Derp, Holo beat me to it inbetween page reloads…
I don’t see much point in 10-bit (other than the increased quality/lower file size angle) until there is wider support, but I agree that some experimental stuff in the meantime would be fun.
It took awhile, but H.264 in .mkv containers finally got so popular it became a standard on media players. Maybe if 10-bit gets wide acceptance in the fansub community the way H264/.mkv did, it’ll help push the pace along.
That said, I have seen some ultra-high quality 8-bit stuff with almost unbelievably small file sizes, so bitrate isn’t everything.
Imagine the filesizes if they had all that treatment, plus were in 10-bit.
imagine no cap pn the video
“Fansub nerds crack me up. They’re switching to 10-bit video encoding, breaking compatibility with everything, citing better quality, But to get any quality boost, your source has to be 10-bit. They’re all using compressed-to-hell MPEG-2 (< 8-bit) TV rips. Real smart, guys.
In fact, the Japanese masters are on HD-CAM. 8-bit. No POSSIBLE way to get 10-bit color out of that anime, guys. Sorry." — Justin Sevakis aka biggest viseo-phile on the planet
I suppose he doesn’t realize that no one is trying to see 10-bits of color.
He does realize that, he’s just using that as the reason to make it seem like fansub nerds really are idiots.
I don’t think any group has gone 10-bit exclusively, either.
@1Logic: Indeed.
@khayal101: 1- it is already heavily supported
2- the diferences between a 8 bit and a upscaled 10 bit are huge
3- is that comment from “Justin Sevakis aka biggest viseo-phile on the planet” updated?
4- never heard of that “great video master”
5- 1Logic is right on his comment
6- if you dont want 10 bit jus keep DLing the 8 bit and let the others evolve
with no more things to say see you on my next comment.
P.S.- sorry for any typo
if you check his twitter again, you’ll see he ate his words just a little while later.
lol
10-bit encode is what for the future
but i myself would it not to preclude
because 10 bit for one high qc cares
anymore time for 10 bit and support
and 10 bit will awesome!
I don´t like 8 bit! For me bullshit!
Nanda kore wa?!
“Is lacking, in him, the power of the force” by Yoda
lol, btw wold you care join the darkside?
tish ish waht we geht whenn ussing googel translat withot edittink ’em.
lfmao
K Lite Mega Codec updated with the 10-bit H264 support. I AM READYYYYYYY FOR THIS
only dumbs ore people with really weak PC (less than 2GB ram, 1.8GHz CPU) arent ready
Maybe, JUST MAYBE, people lack jobs and/or money? Calling people dumb just because they have antiquated technology is foolish.
thas why i said dumbs OR PEOPLE WITH REALLY WEAK PC, people with weak PC are out of the dumb group
P.S. sorry for typo ore = or (if the typo made you misunderstand the sentence i really beg for your pardon) and sorry in advance for any typo on this comment.
Agreed
A PC with a 1.6-2.2GHz single core CPU will play 480-720p just fine with a proper encode. But it might not do 1080p too well, regardless of bitrate.
even my 2.1 GHz notebook barely play 1080p…. D:
single core is indeed a bit bad to play media files (it wold be better for you to use VLC because it downscales evrything so the PC can play it or wait for coreAVC 3.0)
bu…..but…. VLC is shit D:
My Laptop Specs:
Core 2 Duo T6600 @2.20 Ghz (2 CPUs)
Intel 4 HD Graphics
4 GB DDR2
Windows 7 x64 Home Premium
CCCP (Beta) / Player MPC-HC
1080p plays fine, the only lag part is on karaoke.
then it’s time to sell that notebook of yours and go get a notebook with adequate GPU.
i know it is shit but it downscales evrything so the PC can handle it (i am waiting for coreAVC 3.0 exactly because of that)
I can’t believe you people are watching 1080p on LAPTOPS. There’d be no lag if people encoded properly to use hardware acceleration – something that 10-bit is incapable of yet.
ever since i bought desktop, i stopped watching anime on my laptop 😛
I watch 1080p on my C2D laptop, but it’s connected to my 1080p TV. No playback problems here except with some karaoke (Doki’s is fine).
i also watch on my laptop 1080p on the TV (when i’m too lazy to turn on the desktop) and never had problems rendering subtitles or lag problems while watching.
P.S. for what i’ve read many people HTPC are weaker than my laptop -.-
I just love how Hi10p has such a low bitrate and filesize and still achieve the same quality (if not better).
I wouldn’t mind the lack of hardware acceleration though, as it will eventually catch up to that.
I do not understand. Why is it that people don’t get a simple fact: the purpose of 10bit encoding is NOT to get a smaller file size, that’s just a bonus. NOR is it to increase video quality of the source, that is impossible. The true benefit is much less banding and blocking because of higher color accuracy. Even if tha source is 8bit (and it usually is), encoding it in 10bits will give a higher quality end result simply becuse there will be less banding.
agrees
Seconded
😀
I do not understand. Why is it that people don’t get a simple fact: not everyone is so obsessed with minor picture improvements that we want to go through the fuss of a whole new encoding process that lacks full compatability and requires higher hardware specs, just for a difference in quality that you can’t even notice on a laptop or standard size monitor unless you sit with your nose to the screen.
People get it. We just aren’t all video snobs.
And there’s nothing wrong with that. If you, or anyone else, undestand the advantages, but still want no part of it, that’s fine. Nobody is going to force you to download 10bit encodes. Will you have less download choices? Of course you will. Some encoders have already switched to 10bit encoding, and others will follow. But you need to understand something: this isn’t YOUR choice. It’s the choice of the fansubbers. Sure, you can input your opinion, but in the end, all you can do is either download the 10bit release, download the 8bit release if it exists or stop downloading from that group.
PS: If you can’t tell the difference between 8bit with color banding and 10bit with almost no color banding, you’re blind anyway or ar watching on a 10 inch screen.
Don’t you think less banding and blocking means higher quality? I think it is.
i also think it is
That’s not what I means. Yes, less banding is higher quality, I just meant that it wouldn’t magically made 10bit content out of 8bit sources.
Then streaming will always be an option for you, so will 480p Xvid encodes (probably). Anime has been video snobbish for years, just look at the file sizes that we accept without blinking an eye, because we don’t care about the filesize being 500MB for a 20 minute cartoon, we care that the quality is as high as it realistically can get.
I really wish that had put that in their blurb everyone is replying to. Would have saved me a lot of angry thoughts along the lines of “for those who would benefit the most file size shouldn’t be an issue.”
Still I’m concerned it won’t work with the CUDA on the video card I just bought and installed in my HTPC. To have just spent $60 on a 520 GT and Core AVC, then spending 3 hours installing and carefully configuring programs…. Or maybe it will work fine with it. I have no idea.
“…then spending 3 hours installing and carefully configuring programs…” you lost a lot of time, good thing the update will be free or less than a new licence of the software (not sureif it will be really free) for those who have the last coreAVC (coreAVC 2.5.5)
The problem is that if the whole community heads that direction and completely abandons the previous standard even the guys who don’t care will have to play them, regardless of whether they can or not. Otherwise they’ll be stuck with streams.
That’s progress. You can’t wait till everyone is ready to switch to something better. We’d still be endoding in .rm if that were the case. There are still people demanding xvid. What if everyone would have waited untill everyone was OK with h264?
Indeed.
I agree with the general sentiment of people who are saying it’s progress and you can’t sit on the status quo forever, but I do think the transition from 8 to 10bit is being grossly exaggerated for what it actually does and the need to push for it ASAP has been very knee-jerk.
What bothers me is 8bit h264 is f-ing beautiful. I can’t help but think people are acting really spoiled by NEEDING to change encoding so soon when it’s already so good. I can remember watching rmvb on Real Player and all the transitions up to now, and the difference between 8 and 10bit h264 is nothing like the other leaps that have been made. Not even close.
The quality of rips is already extremely close (if not completely) equal to original DVD/BD source. So the idea that there’s an urgent need to change encoding seems like OCD silliness to me.
Funny you should mention OCD, because frankly, most subbers DO suffer from some form of it. If you release an episode with a different font then the last one? v2. If you hear the lyrics to a song wrong? v2. If you wrote the romanization to a name wrong? batch v2. HOLY SHIT I FORGOT TO ADD THE CHAPTERS! v2. Take me for example. There are FIVE versions on Needles episode 4.
PS: Banding is a huge problem so anything that fixes it will be jumped on like the last drop of water in the dessert.
Indeed. Fansubbers suffer a lot and if something reduces the banding PLEASE USE IT.
just go on with 10-bit… many people back then object h264 mkv but now they are forced to use the higher quality and more beautiful h264 which is great and they became silence… now with 10-bit you guys can deliver a high quality video with smaller file-size, so why not?
WHY NOT? WHY NOT? WHY NOT? (for those who objected the idea to move to 10bit)
I agree with Dmon. The advent of 10-bit is just like h264 was first used for fansubs. You know, is not that anything good comes without drawbacks, but if you can tune your programs you can decode it just fine. I get a 720p with full karaoke subs (10-bit) to use only 1 – 2% cpu more than the 8 bit equivalent.
Using MPC-HC 1.5.3.3653, MadVR 0.73 (for render and decoding), FFDSHOW Tryouts rev3951 for audio (spdif used), Haali media splitter for MKV.
726 comments and 80% are the exact same bullshit. Just switch to 10-bit and close this conversation already.
There isn’t any point to completely switching, half the userbase wouldn’t be able to play the files.
I expect Doki will offer some series in 10-bit (in addition to 480p/720p 8-bit) for the fall or winter shows. Or maybe some of the completed series will see 10-bit offered for re-archiving.
10-bit is coming, sure. But it’ll be a slow roll-out, not an immediate switchover.
I completely agree with this one, nuff said.
Please don’t switch completely. It seems that my Boxee box has hardware limitations regarding 10bit encoding.
http://jira.boxee.tv/browse/BOXEE-10931?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels%3Acomment-tabpanel#issue-tabs
that’s why i don’t like hardware players, when software evolves they cant get the job done
10bit is perfect for DVD-Rips and SD material because the filesize is smaller and its still playable.
SD? oO
It is perfect for BD/DVD/VHS/BETAMAX and all the others i dont know
I downloaded a few hi10anime rips earlier, have to say I approve. No noticeable quality differences, but file-sizes under half the size of the same 8-bit rips.
I don’t mind adopting, my laptop can still run them, and it’s got a relatively old CPU so yeah.